DC-17M Shotgun (Store Purchase)

[Jad]

Now that we've had a fair amount of time to settle into the most recent weapons update and balancing I'd like to possibly re-visit the DC-17M Shotgun if deemed necessary by the Community.

Lets get into a bit of backstory and information pre-update to address some of the questions and concerns as to why the weapon is in the current state that it is.
Before the weapons update we noticed the shotgun as a whole was way out preforming any other weapon on the server which can lead to serious imbalance and concerns from players using or going against said weapon. When checking the numbers for the weapon it was sitting at a whopping 2,200 DPS (The next closest thing in DPS was the CIS SG-6 Shotgun sitting at 600).

With these numbers in mind we knew we seriously had to dial back on the weapon but at the same time make sure it was enjoyable to still use by the people who have purchased the weapon. Moving forward we decided to keep some of the perks of the weapon like the increased RPM and accuracy while also making the weapon fully automatic with a decent magazine. Unfortunately that means the weapon had to take a hit in the damage compartment to still meet our DPS scale.

 

For those struggling with how to give a suggestion here's a template that may be helpful.
 

Spoiler

DC-17M Shotgun (Red) Re-Balance Suggestion:

• Damage:
• Pellets:
• RPM:
• Magazine:
• DPS:

[EXAMPLE] DC-17M Shotgun (Red) Re-Balance Suggestion:

• Damage: 18
• Pellets: 6
• RPM: 162
• Magazine: 8-10
• DPS: 291.6

 

Suggestion Resources

Weapon scaling information for those who like numbers:

• General trooper weapons fit into a standard category of 200DPS(DC-15A/DC-15S) and increase depending on some factors.
• Snipers receive a 20% increase.
• Shotguns receive a 20% increase.
• Pistols sit with no increase to DPS but come with the ability to ADS without movement speed penalty.
• LMG's have a decrease to accuracy but increased magazine.
• Assault Rifles are standard DPS scaling.
• Heavy Weapons receive a bonus according to the type of weapon (Z-6 gets 50% for example)
• Each Tier in the Perma vendor has a flat 5% DPS increase added to it as it increases in Tier (Tier 1 5%, Tier 2 10%, etc etc)
• Store weapons sit in Tier 5 for easier scaling and DPS calculations (DC-17M Shotgun, Mandalorian Rifle, Wrist Flamethrower)

Examples of potential changes would be.

• Increase pellets (would lower damage per pellet)
• Decrease RPM (Would increase damage)
• Increase RPM (Would decrease damage)
• Increase Spread, Decrease Spread
• Change magazine capacity

How to calculate the DPS (Damage Per Second) of a weapon.

• Obtain the weapons damage.
  • DC-15A's damage is 48.
• Obtain the weapons RPM (Rounds per minute).
  • DC-15A's RPM is 250.
• Multiply the damage and RPM of the weapon to determine the DPM (damage per minute).
  • 48 * 250 = 12,000
• Divide the DPM by 60 (seconds) to find the DPS.
  • 12,000 / 60 = 200

 

DPS Reference for other shotguns.

• DP23 (Clone Standard)
  • (184 * 79) / 60 = 242.26
• DC-17M Shotgun (SOBDE)
  • (180 * 84) / 60 = 252
• Hunter Shotgun  (Tier 3)
  • (210 * 78) / 60 =273
• Scatter Shotgun (Tier 4)
  • (222 * 76) / 60 = 281.2
• DC-17M Shotgun RED (Tier 5)
  • (78 * 224) / 60 = 291.2
• SG-6 (Event Job)
  • (150 * 120) / 60 = 300

 

I'd like to open this thread up to be a civil discussion which could potentially change the future of this weapon, this thread is not a place to sit and complain without providing solutions. When providing critique on how to better improve the weapon please be mindful of the weapons tier and where it sits (As a Tier 5 shotgun it's sitting at 290DPS). Be creative with suggestions if you wish, but do keep in mind that negatives (Like accuracy decrease while moving) will come to a weapon with too many positives to ensure balancing.

[Void]

I sadly don't own the shotgun so my opinion has no strong relevance, but from what I've seen and heard. If it was to be rebalanced, the sound of decreasing the RPM but with increased damage sounds like the ideal path.

[Conrad]

Stats man incoming. Sorry poor formatting on my phone. 
So the gun currently is at 291.2 dps. This makes it the best shotgun in the game by about 10 dps ( second going to the scatter with 281.2 dps) 

now tier 5 weapons are rated at 250 dps. Now that means the shotgun should be at 300 dps with the 20%. I would like to see that sight buff in the damage department so it matches. 
 

while we’re talking about guns that don’t meet the 20% I’d throw most if not all shotguns and snipers. The number I’ve found is simply an additional +50 in dps. 20% means a buff for all but tier 1 shotguns and snipers. Including special tier (z6i doesn’t match the 50% and the nt doesn’t match the 20%)

Edited August 5, 2021 by Conrad

[Jad]

4 minutes ago, Conrad said:

now tier 5 weapons are rated at 250 dps. Now that means the shotgun should be at 300 dps with the 20%. I would like to see that sight buff in the damage department so it matches.

Unfortunately I believe your math is off. All weapon scaling is done based off the standard 200DPS and all % increases are additive not multiplicative. Tier 5 is 25% increase, shotgun is 20% increase for a total of 45% increase sitting the weapon at 290DPS.

[Conrad]

2 minutes ago, Jad said:

Unfortunately I believe you math is off. All weapon scaling is done based off the standard 200DPS and all % increases are additive not multiplicative. Tier 5 is 25% increase, shotgun is 20% increase for a total of 45% increase sitting the weapon at 290DPS.

You do additive not multiplicative. That’s where the confusion Comes from. I thought it would be 200*1.25*1.2=300. 
honestly I’d like to see it be multiplicative. Those slight increase will make snipers and shotguns feel a bit more satisfying IMO. 

Edited August 5, 2021 by Conrad

[Hanz]

While I do think my time has been more enjoyable not using the shotgun and if it were like this from the start it would be fine, I just wish I didn't spend $85 on it back in the day for it now to be not as fun or good as my other weapons.

[Conrad]

2 minutes ago, Hanz said:

While I do think my time has been more enjoyable not using the shotgun and if it were like this from the start it would be fine, I just wish I didn't spend $85 on it back in the day for it now to be not as fun or good as my other weapons.

I have spent a lot of time telling people “no it’s not dog shit. It’s still the best dps wise.” This wasn’t just some number changes for some guns. This was a complete overhaul of everything. Things have to change and comparing them from then to how they feel now isn’t fair. Compare the current shotguns to each other. All shotguns but this gun are more slower rate. Wider spread. More damage. The store dc17m is the only one that goes the other way with higher rate tighter spread and more dps. I like the breaking the mold that it provides and want it to keep it, with just a slight buff in the damage department to bring it up to 300~ dps because multiplicative is the way to go

[Jad]

5 minutes ago, Hanz said:

While I do think my time has been more enjoyable not using the shotgun and if it were like this from the start it would be fine, I just wish I didn't spend $85 on it back in the day for it now to be not as fun or good as my other weapons.

I understand the frustration that can come with balancing compromises, and I appreciate your honesty. But I would prefer if you followed up with a solution or a suggestion to address your concerns in a way that I can work with.

[Jad]

14 minutes ago, Conrad said:

honestly I’d like to see it be multiplicative. Those slight increase will make snipers and shotguns feel a bit more satisfying IMO. 

If we moved to multiplicative it would be for all weapons and would sit us in this same area of discussion. That would also be a flat damage/RPM increase to all weapons not just the DC-17M shotgun. What you're asking for in my eyes is a buff to all weapons across the board and this discussion/thread is specifically for the DC-17M shotgun.

Edit: One of the reasons for weapons to be in the state that they were pre-update was because exceptions were made to many different weapons overtime which ended with us not having a proper scale we could follow for the future. So in re-doing the entirety of the weapon base and scaling we heavily focused and forced ourselves to follow scaling for every weapon with no exception, store weapons included. I'd like for the DPS of the DC-17M shotgun to remain at 290 as it continues to follow the rest of our scales and balancing.

[Hanz]

5 minutes ago, Jad said:

I understand the frustration that can come with balancing compromises, and I appreciate your honesty. But I would prefer if you followed up with a solution or a suggestion to address your concerns in a way that I can work with.

I posted that not having thought of a solution yet but only one has come to mind so far. Instead of it being in the store, it can be moved to the vendor in armory with a higher or equivalent credit price to the $90 it is, and then add the feature for players to refund for 50% (I believe thats it correct me if I am wrong). This would satisfy as many people as possible and while it possibly might ruin the credit economy it keeps all of the money in the server. THIS IS A VERY OUTLANDISH GOAL BUT ITS JUST AN IDEA AND I HOPE IT CAN GIVE OTHERS BETTER ONES

 

6 minutes ago, Conrad said:

I have spent a lot of time telling people “no it’s not dog shit. It’s still the best dps wise.” This wasn’t just some number changes for some guns. This was a complete overhaul of everything. Things have to change and comparing them from then to how they feel now isn’t fair. Compare the current shotguns to each other. All shotguns but this gun are more slower rate. Wider spread. More damage. The store dc17m is the only one that goes the other way with higher rate tighter spread and more dps. I like the breaking the mold that it provides and want it to keep it, with just a slight buff in the damage department to bring it up to 300~ dps because multiplicative is the way to go

I mostly meant that it would be more effective to instead rush in with the shotgun it would be more effective to take a position with my sniper or it would be more fun to fly around someone in circles with my DC-17s blasting them while they can't seem to hit me

Edited August 5, 2021 by Hanz
Added something

[Conrad]

4 minutes ago, Jad said:

If we moved to multiplicative it would be for all weapons and would sit us in this same area of discussion. That would also be a flat damage/RPM increase to all weapons not just the DC-17M shotgun. What you're asking for in my eyes is a buff to all weapons across the board and this discussion/thread is specifically for the DC-17M shotgun.

It wouldn’t be to all guns. Just to shotguns and snipers (and not tier 1) which shotguns are relevant because as I said you should compare them to each other not to how they where. By making it multiplicative you’ll allow for a bit more damage to be added which could take the gun more into a comfortable range. I like how it’s the one shotgun that breaks the mold. A bit more damage per should would make it perfect. And this can be done in a fair and balanced way with the multiplicative change. 

Edited August 5, 2021 by Conrad

[Marvel]

I think my signature speaks for itself

wait  who changed my signature 

Edited August 5, 2021 by Marvel

[Naffen]

I'd much prefer the shotgun to be a hard hitting gun then fast firing and lots of damage over time. 
I think if the Mag size was to move down from 12 to 8 or 6, then decrease the fire rate from 224 to 180 or something around there would be a better feeling for the shotgun. 
Raise the Damage from 13x6 to 18x6 or an increased damage correlating to match the decrease of fire rate. And if it feels too OP, then could raise the spread a bit more.
Numbers probably dont match or make sense right now, but a slower firing, harder hitting shotgun would feel a lot better imo.

[Jad]

10 minutes ago, Naffen said:

decrease the fire rate from 224 to 180 or something around there would be a better feeling for the shotgun. 
Raise the Damage from 13x6 to 18x6

If we increased the damage per pellet to 18x6 (108 damage) we'd have to lower the RPM to 162 for 291.6DPS total. That'd be a pretty drastic hit to RPM making it fire 2.7 rounds per second instead of 3.73 rounds per second. That's completely do-able but the magazine like you said would take a hit, I'd most likely drop it down to ~10 for testing and possibly 8 if needed.

[Eclipse]

I probably have no valuable input on this BUT I feel like the shotgun now lacks a certain punch. When you shoot someone with it you don't really feel the power behind the shots. A good way to make shots more powerful is stuff like knockback (idk if it can be changed) and general damage.

I feel like the shotgun should be a more heavy hitting, slow firing weapon. If you make it feel powerful people will use it more. I think it'd be great if when you shot someone it felt like you could feel a type of punch with it. Like that it hurts. Idk how you would do it particularly but I think if you can make it work then it would be great.

[Mantis]

Tbh I keep forgetting I own the Shotgun since the update. To busy vibe checking people with grenades 

[Jad]

7 minutes ago, Eclipse said:

I feel like the shotgun should be a more heavy hitting, slow firing weapon. If you make it feel powerful people will use it more. I think it'd be great if when you shot someone it felt like you could feel a type of punch with it. Like that it hurts.

If you could use the resources above to give me an example that'd be great, so I have some numbers to work with.

[Eclipse]

2 hours ago, Jad said:

If you could use the resources above to give me an example that'd be great, so I have some numbers to work with.

Little late but I like Naffen's numbers. I'm not great with numbers and stuff so I don't really have a good base idea for the DPS but I like the stronger shots slower speed and lower ammo that was talked about in Naffens post.

[Marshh]

Shotgun is weak! I feel like the fire rate should stay the same but up the damage!

Edited August 5, 2021 by Marshh

[Jad]

Just now, Marshh said:

Shotgun is weak! I feel like the fire rate should stay the same but up the damage!

[Marshh]

5 minutes ago, Jad said:

I take offense to this! @Eclipsedo your job and settle this right now!

[Whataburger]

i miss when the DC-17m would get banned in FFA's now its just balanced 

[Eclipse]

2 minutes ago, Marshh said:

I take offense to this! @Eclipsedo your job and settle this right now!

maybe

[Deku]

Giving brutal honesty, if you get mad or upset, then sucks to be you

Alright gonna give my opinion here now. I've had my RC Shotgun for quite some time now and to be honest, since the newest change... it's pointless. Paying $90 for this shotgun is not worth it in my opinion. Time and time again I know I have the ability to use the shotgun, but it's completely useless. The weapon itself doesn't do enough to warrant me to use it, compared to a lot of the weapons in the new weapon update, the DC-17M is actually extremely underwhelming. It's to the point where I don't even register I have the gun anymore because it's like hurling rocks at people.

Now as for what to change.. honestly I don't know. I'm not a developer or statistic "specialist" but I would say it definitely needs to be balanced more. Everyone bitched and moaned to get it nerfed and now it's nerfed so bad, it's not even worth spending money on. Especially not $90 USD. If I were to buff this, I would sacrifice mag size for more damage or fire rate. That way it still stays relatively balanced, and you have that wow factor that will draw people in to start buying it again. Naffen brings up some pretty good buffs, I'd have to agree with him although I had being one of those "+1 I agree with ____" but I think he's brought up one of the best changes for the shotgun so far. Honestly I would rather it feel more like an actual shotgun, it has a low fire rate but damn does it pack a punch in close quarters! If anyone remembers playing Black Ops 2, think of the KSG from that game. That's what I would base it off of, but again, I'm no expert, I'm merely just throwing out ideas. 

[Craigary]

It feels like a marshmallow shooter now to be frank, and for the price not necessarily worth it, it’s just a decoration. 
 

That being said I feel like what Jad said would be dope. 
 

I don’t want it to be as op as it was but just a little better than it currently is.

[Jad]

15 minutes ago, Deku said:

If I were to buff this, I would sacrifice mag size for more damage or fire rate.

Thanks for the feedback! Honestly it's hard to get around using the term buff or nerf at this point as I'm suggesting a potential weapon "rework" if necessary. Since the DPS of the weapon is sitting at 290, increasing RPM or damage without reducing the other would put it over that DPS threshold. Magazine size is addressed after adjusting a weapon to ensure it still feels and works properly in PVE and PVP environments.

Some examples so you can see the changes outright might help so here are a couple.

Increasing damage to 18 per pellet from 13 would make the damage per shot be 108, up 30 from the original 78.
With those damages in mind if I left RPM at 224 we'd be looking at a DPS of 403.2 which rivals the DC-17s Dual Pistols (500M).
If I lower the RPM to 162 that'd keep the overall DPS of the weapon to 290.

Increasing RPM of the weapon to lets say 360 (6 shots a second) up 136 from the original 224.
If I was to leave Damage at 13 per pellet we'd be looking at 468 DPS (Now way over special tier weapons).
Lowering the damage to 8 per pellet would make the weapon do 48 damage per shot but now sit at 288 DPS (I'd increase RPM a bit to make it a bit higher than 290).

[Piff]

This is like COD devs trying to balance out weapons but in turn they make something else OP and make something else shit so the server basically has a meta 

Edited August 6, 2021 by Piff

[Brooklyn]

23 hours ago, Jad said:

DPS Reference for other shotguns.

• DP23 (Clone Standard)
  • (184 * 79) / 60 = 242.26
• DC-17M Shotgun (SOBDE)
  • (180 * 84) / 60 = 252
• Hunter Shotgun  (Tier 3)
  • (210 * 78) / 60 =273
• Scatter Shotgun (Tier 4)
  • (222 * 76) / 60 = 281.2
• DC-17M Shotgun RED (Tier 5)
  • (78 * 224) / 60 = 291.2
• SG-6 (Event Job)
  • (150 * 120) / 60 = 300

@Deku Bad nerf amiright? Who wants the most DPS shotgun available?

Edited August 6, 2021 by Brooklyn

[Deku]

9 minutes ago, Brooklyn said:

@Deku Bad nerf amiright? Who wants the most DPS shotgun available?

It should be one of the highest damaging shotguns, people pay $90 for the fucking thing? But even as it is now. It’s one of the highest damaging shotguns but shotguns themselves are terrible on the server. So your point really doesn’t prove anything besides comparing it to the rest of the shotguns next to it. And even being higher then most other shotguns, it’s still not worth the $90 you pay for it. It’s a whole tier above the scatter shotgun, even though it only does 10 damage more. And that’s IF ever piece of the bullet spread hits, and they’re not miles away.

[Brooklyn]

2 minutes ago, Deku said:

It should be one of the highest damaging shotguns, people pay $90 for the fucking thing? But even as it is now. It’s one of the highest damaging shotguns but shotguns themselves are terrible on the server. So your point really doesn’t prove anything besides comparing it to the rest of the shotguns next to it. And even being higher then most other shotguns, it’s still not worth the $90 you pay for it. 

Dude you literally don't show emotion in anime. Your opinion is void.

[Deku]

4 minutes ago, Brooklyn said:

Dude you literally don't show emotion in anime. Your opinion is void.

Dude you literally are only known for being that one weirdo that likes cat girls. Your opinion is invalid no matter what you think. Maybe we should keep the comments for what the post is actually about instead of getting defensive when you have nothing better to say or think of 

 

oh and also… cope harder

[Brooklyn]

Just now, Deku said:

Dude you literally are only known for being that one weirdo that likes cat girls. Your opinion is invalid no matter what you think. Maybe we should keep the comments for what the post is actually about instead of getting defensive when you have nothing better to say or think of 

Ow

[Dyn]

On 8/5/2021 at 10:22 AM, Jad said:

Examples of potential changes would be.

• Increase pellets (would lower damage per pellet)
• Increase Spread

Not really an owner, but I feel like for a $90 store weapon it could probably use a bit more oomph than the typical shotgun. I'm curious about how others would feel if either the damage or just the pellet amount was increased without lowering damage, but to compensate increase the spread to reduce the effectiveness at a range. 

On 8/5/2021 at 10:22 AM, Jad said:

Weapon scaling information for those who like numbers:

• General trooper weapons fit into a standard category of 200DPS(DC-15A/DC-15S) and increase depending on some factors.
• Pistols sit with no increase to DPS but come with the ability to ADS without movement speed penalty.
• Each Tier in the Perma vendor has a flat 5% DPS increase added to it as it increases in Tier (Tier 1 5%, Tier 2 10%, etc etc)
• Store weapons sit in Tier 5 for easier scaling and DPS calculations (DC-17M Shotgun, Mandalorian Rifle, Wrist Flamethrower)

A little off topic but I'm mostly just curious about something, you list pistols can run with ADS without a penalty. Did you have a balancing method used for dual pistols that adjusted for this?

[Jad]

1 hour ago, CastleClone said:

Not really an owner, but I feel like for a $90 store weapon it could probably use a bit more oomph than the typical shotgun.

True, which is why it's the only shotgun to be balanced into the Tier 5 category. There are no other obtainable shotguns at or above where it sits.

 

1 hour ago, CastleClone said:

A little off topic but I'm mostly just curious about something, you list pistols can run with ADS without a penalty. Did you have a balancing method used for dual pistols that adjusted for this?

Increased accuracy, decreased recoil for the most part.

[Bro]

Personally I'd like to see shotguns stronger but I understand how that might be off "kilter" I think the next step to make the magazine less and the shotgun faster, instead of just DPS but instead looking into time to kill.

Most people look at this shotgun for its quickness and usability pointblank to scare people around it. Reliving this would most likely shorten the complaints

Edited August 7, 2021 by Bro

[Deku]

DC-17M Shotgun (Red) Re-Balance Suggestion:

• Damage: 21
• Pellets: 8
• RPM: 104
• Magazine: 10
• DPS: 291.2 (168 x 104 / 60)
  
  Now, I wanted to give a brief explanation as to why these balance changes are the way they are. I personally think that people believe that the DC-17M is worse now, simply because it doesn't have that wow factor of killing in 2 or 3 bullets. Now, with the scatter shotgun, you can kill a regular clone in about 2 or 3 shots, which is why a lot of people may look at it over the DC-17M, although technically the DC-17M has a higher DPS and kills quicker. Now, I wanted to embody that and make it seem that the DC-17M just packs an absolute punch. With this, it should (i believe) 3 shot a clone trooper with max stats, and it has a similar, but lower, fire rate then the SG-6. I believe that with the ability to act more as a heavy hitting shotgun, rather then an auto shotgun, people will get that satisfying feel of absolutely shitting on players, even though technically they're still killing them just as fast as they would now. (I feel like main issue with the DC-17M now is that it REQUIRES every shot in the magazine to be hit with almost every pellet hitting and people baby rage because their aim is bad)
  
  @Jad
  
  
  AND YES, I do realize that this takes away from the "auto shotgun" type of feel that the DC-17M shotgun has now, however it was made clear that the DPS is to stay around the same spot of 291, meaning that the stats need to be moved around, this is my ideal DC-17M, it may not be yours, but if I was designing the shotgun stats, this is what I would make them.

[Jad]

7 minutes ago, Deku said:

DC-17M Shotgun (Red) Re-Balance Suggestion:

• Damage: 21
• Pellets: 8
• RPM: 104
• Magazine: 10
• DPS: 291.2 (168 x 104 / 60)
   

Nice, so you've basically roughly doubled the damage and halved the RPM to come to more of a safe medium. With this RPM you'd be looking at 1.73 shots per second which should feel quite a bit faster then the rest of them. It'd obviously feel much slower compared to how the weapon is now but that's a given. You'd be looking at around a 24% damage decrease compared to the Scatter Shotgun (Tier 4) but a 28% increase in RPM.

[Deku]

1 minute ago, Jad said:

Nice, so you've basically roughly doubled the damage and halved the RPM to come to more of a safe medium. With this RPM you'd be looking at 1.73 shots per second which should feel quite a bit faster then the rest of them. It'd obviously feel much slower compared to how the weapon is now but that's a given. You'd be looking at around a 24% damage decrease compared to the Scatter Shotgun (Tier 4) but a 28% increase in RPM.

correct me if I'm wrong though, in a PvP POV, i believe this would 3 shot a trooper with max stats. Or are we looking at a 4 shot kill?

[Jad]

1 minute ago, Deku said:

correct me if I'm wrong though, in a PvP POV, i believe this would 3 shot a trooper with max stats. Or are we looking at a 4 shot kill?

That would require me to test on Dev to make sure, it should be close enough to 3 shot but I've seen weirder things that we've had to deal with to make weapons work properly. There's a reason the NT 242c does 600 damage for example.

[Deku]

3 minutes ago, Jad said:

That would require me to test on Dev to make sure, it should be close enough to 3 shot but I've seen weirder things that we've had to deal with to make weapons work properly. There's a reason the NT 242c does 600 damage for example.

Gotcha, that was my main goal was to have high enough damage to be able to 3 shot troopers and most GM B1's while having a faster fire rate then the Scatter Shotgun! 

[Conrad]

I wanna come through with some more stats here for the guns to compare on what we could do to this gun to keep it in line with what Jad wants in terms of DPS. I don't think everyone here is fully realizing how they want these balances to work, and I feel between all of the extensive testing with each gun (yes all of them) and talking with Jad I have a bit more realization of what the founder team wants.

Giving the 3 million is 20$ we see the DC-17M is 13.5 Million credits if bought from the store. This is cheaper then a tier 4 if you're just buying credits..

So these are the DPS targets for the guns in each range based on category. Note all guns bought through the forum pages not in game (dc-17M, Mando rifle, ect) are all rated at tier 5.

So our DPS target for a tier 5 gun is 290~ it seems that they're ok with going over by 1/2 DPS per category. The DPS of the current DC-17M is 291.2, so a bit over the target but inline with the the additional allowed points.

The current stats are 13x6 (13 damage, with 6 bullets) at 224 RPM.

13x6x224/60=291.2. (the /60 is because it is in RPM, and we are finding DPS, so going from minutes to seconds)

here are some other potential things we could do that fall in line with the 290 DPS target range:

Basically As we increase damage, we have to decrease RPM, but with shotguns we have another things we can do there, and that is dividing damage between bullets.

• Here are the base examples
  • If we have 224 RPM (current) we are allowed up to 78 damage per shot.
• Now if we want to make the gun have more oof to it, we need to decrease RPM
  • If we want 150 damage per shot, our RPM drops to 116.48 RPM.
• If we want to have it match the guns purchasable from the vendor we get
  • 76 RPM giving us 230 Damage per round (the scatter has 222).
• Now lets see what happened when we make the RPM to around a sniper rate, but have insane damage.
  • 40 RPM giving us 436.8 damage per shot.
  • Now from what jad has said to me, he isn't keen on having any guns that are one shot, so something like this would probably be balanced with insane spread and low ammo amount.

So now we have some options,

• Do we want a higher fire rate, with low damage, which is balanced with it being better at range and more ammo (closest thing to the current version)
• Do we want a medium fire rate, with medium damage, which is just kind of a slightly more damage version of the hunter and scatter guns.
• Do we want a low fire rate, with high damage, which is balanced with poor range and probably a clip size of 2 or 3.

And now options for how we split the damage

• Low damage and many bullets
• Medium damage and medium bullet amount
• High Damage and low bullet amount

From there we can decide how we want to split up the damage, with high amount of bullets, and low damage per bullet, high damage per bullet and low amount of bullets. But to me these things are more things that will be more chosen by jad when it comes to balancing the gun, but we could probably push him in the right direction of what we want a bit, but not fully i'd say. So what do you guys think of the 3 options i provided. Do keep in mind how the balance will come from recoil, clip size and spread.

 

Edit: Just did some live testing with jad, from what I know about this community you guys want to go the blunderbust route. High damage, low RPM, wide spread, no clip size. Just my two cents on what I know about this community!

 

 

Edited August 11, 2021 by Conrad

[Deku]

3 hours ago, Conrad said:

I wanna come through with some more stats here for the guns to compare on what we could do to this gun to keep it in line with what Jad wants in terms of DPS. I don't think everyone here is fully realizing how they want these balances to work, and I feel between all of the extensive testing with each gun (yes all of them) and talking with Jad I have a bit more realization of what the founder team wants.

Giving the 3 million is 20$ we see the DC-17M is 13.5 Million credits if bought from the store. This is cheaper then a tier 4 if you're just buying credits..

So these are the DPS targets for the guns in each range based on category. Note all guns bought through the forum pages not in game (dc-17M, Mando rifle, ect) are all rated at tier 5.

So our DPS target for a tier 5 gun is 290~ it seems that they're ok with going over by 1/2 DPS per category. The DPS of the current DC-17M is 291.2, so a bit over the target but inline with the the additional allowed points.

The current stats are 13x6 (13 damage, with 6 bullets) at 224 RPM.

13x6x224/60=291.2. (the /60 is because it is in RPM, and we are finding DPS, so going from minutes to seconds)

here are some other potential things we could do that fall in line with the 290 DPS target range:

Basically As we increase damage, we have to decrease RPM, but with shotguns we have another things we can do there, and that is dividing damage between bullets.

• Here are the base examples
  • If we have 224 RPM (current) we are allowed up to 78 damage per shot.
• Now if we want to make the gun have more oof to it, we need to decrease RPM
  • If we want 150 damage per shot, our RPM drops to 116.48 RPM.
• If we want to have it match the guns purchasable from the vendor we get
  • 76 RPM giving us 230 Damage per round (the scatter has 222).
• Now lets see what happened when we make the RPM to around a sniper rate, but have insane damage.
  • 40 RPM giving us 436.8 damage per shot.
  • Now from what jad has said to me, he isn't keen on having any guns that are one shot, so something like this would probably be balanced with insane spread and low ammo amount.

So now we have some options,

• Do we want a higher fire rate, with low damage, which is balanced with it being better at range and more ammo (closest thing to the current version)
• Do we want a medium fire rate, with medium damage, which is just kind of a slightly more damage version of the hunter and scatter guns.
• Do we want a low fire rate, with high damage, which is balanced with poor range and probably a clip size of 2 or 3.

And now options for how we split the damage

• Low damage and many bullets
• Medium damage and medium bullet amount
• High Damage and low bullet amount

From there we can decide how we want to split up the damage, with high amount of bullets, and low damage per bullet, high damage per bullet and low amount of bullets. But to me these things are more things that will be more chosen by jad when it comes to balancing the gun, but we could probably push him in the right direction of what we want a bit, but not fully i'd say. So what do you guys think of the 3 options i provided. Do keep in mind how the balance will come from recoil, clip size and spread.

 

Edit: Just did some live testing with jad, from what I know about this community you guys want to go the blunderbust route. High damage, low RPM, wide spread, no clip size. Just my two cents on what I know about this community!

 

 

Alright Conrad we get it, your dick is slightly larger then the average male.

 

But anyways, when I had put my suggestion of what we should change the stats, obviously I would’ve preferred to have the same 6 pellets we have now rather then 8, however I feel like for balancing reasons it’s probably best to have a wider spread. However like I said, if we could get 6 pellets to have a tighter spread and have that “oomf” then that would be an ideal shotgun for me. As for the rest of the community idk, nobody has really given ACTUAL statistics on what they want changed besides myself. 

 

But out of the options you’ve listed, I’m gonna stick with my original opinion. I believe that having high damage, low RPM to 3-4 shot players at max stats and basic B1’s would be decent! Or at least better then what we have currently. Yes the range will definitely suffer however it feels like an actual shotgun. Back when the DC-17M could just rip through event jobs, it barely even felt like a shotgun to me. I think it’ll be a good change to the gun so it actually feels viable and so it feels like it actually fits the class that it’s in. 

[Brooklyn]

Ok look. This is gonna sound weird but bare with me. Why not make it like the KSG from COD BO 2. 1 Shot will the power of buckshot

[Cox]

12 minutes ago, Brooklyn said:

KSG from COD BO 2.

 

[Brooklyn]

4 minutes ago, Cox said:

 

precisely

[Cox]

1 minute ago, Brooklyn said:

precisely

Im not tryna get spawn trapped by a BH with a KSG thats goin make me have some sorta PTSD attack in my room and start convulsing, fuck that never again 

[Conrad]

20 minutes ago, Brooklyn said:

Ok look. This is gonna sound weird but bare with me. Why not make it like the KSG from COD BO 2. 1 Shot will the power of buckshot

Thats the blunder bust option that i mentioned in my edit. I tested it a little with jad on live. It was fun but definitly had some down sides and would probably be worse then my tested version because spread was the default gun spread. But knowing the community I think you all might like it.

[Deku]

15 hours ago, Brooklyn said:

Ok look. This is gonna sound weird but bare with me. Why not make it like the KSG from COD BO 2. 1 Shot will the power of buckshot

I literally said this too in my comment, great minds think alike 

On 8/5/2021 at 6:39 PM, Deku said:

Honestly I would rather it feel more like an actual shotgun, it has a low fire rate but damn does it pack a punch in close quarters! If anyone remembers playing Black Ops 2, think of the KSG from that game. That's what I would base it off of.

 

[Piff]

1 hour ago, Deku said:

I literally said this too in my comment, great minds think alike 

 

KSG was dogshit in BO2 and considering the fact that you think an actual “shotgun” shoots slow for the most part that ain’t how they work since there’s different types, if you want a good example of how a shotgun should be for the most part that will prob please everyone I’d say just get rid of the DC-17M and replace it with something different shit I’d say you should replace it with something completely different to be able to balance it out, I mean if you want a good idea for what a good shotgun should because I promise you a shotgun that shoots a slug like the KSG from BO2 is not going to do well, do something more like the S12 from BO2 where it’s still a buckshot so people would be able to hit their shots unlike the KSG where people would have to be aiming with it and forced to be accurate when GMod is not going to be on your side when doing so and the gun itself would be semi auto instead of fully auto or pump action or you could always go Red dead style and go for a lever action shotgun, joke of course unless…..

[Deku]

12 minutes ago, Piff said:

KSG was dogshit in BO2 and considering the fact that you think an actual “shotgun” shoots slow for the most part that ain’t how they work since there’s different types, if you want a good example of how a shotgun should be for the most part that will prob please everyone I’d say just get rid of the DC-17M and replace it with something different shit I’d say you should replace it with something completely different to be able to balance it out, I mean if you want a good idea for what a good shotgun should because I promise you a shotgun that shoots a slug like the KSG from BO2 is not going to do well, do something more like the S12 from BO2 where it’s still a buckshot so people would be able to hit their shots unlike the KSG where people would have to be aiming with it and forced to be accurate when GMod is not going to be on your side when doing so and the gun itself would be semi auto instead of fully auto or pump action or you could always go Red dead style and go for a lever action shotgun, joke of course unless…..

I wish I could dumb/disagree you twice

[Piff]

4 hours ago, Deku said:

I wish I could dumb/disagree you twice

mf you said shotguns shoot slow, ion know what slow is for you, but they aint slow for sure, especially since im assuming you've never shot guns before