Null can see cloaked in Mando Armor

[Venom]

Name: Venom

RP Rank: 2ndLT

Suggestion: Allow the Nulls + Kal to see cloaked enemies, and only allow Nulls to see them when they are in their Mandalorian Armor bodygrouper. 

Implementation: Just changing the rules

Lore: Null are famously intelligent, and are also incredibly rich in their lore, so no reason for them not to have this tech when it was shown in the Mandalorian when they were raiding the ship in the Post-Empire era. Plus since Nulls + Kal are far more mobile than the others in the Battalion who can actually see cloaked enemies, we most times have to wait for them to arrive, or are SOL as the cloaked enemy might be in a place that RC cannot reach, IE on a ridge. Plus there are only a maximum of 4 null on now, so this shouldn't be broken at all in my eyes, plus SOBDE as a whole has no more cloaking, be it from Omega squad or Prudii.

Workshop content if applicable: N/A
(If no workshop content, suggest a developer or put "Require Development")

I have permission from Metro/Kal to post this.

EDIT: I was told this might be a command meeting thing, if it is, feel free to ignore and move the post accordingly.

Edited June 6, 2021 by Venom

[Cox]

+1 it would make sense that Nulls can see it in their armor epically when now they cant wear their armor much only on rare occasions its pretty harmless thing, plus the whole battalion can its weird having 4 jobs that cant, its like if in SO only supports and ARCs can see cloaks and not the rest 

[Eclipse]

+1

 

I am bias BUT I think this is more balanced with the new rules of what armor to wear. When we used to wear mando armor all the time this would be a little OP. Now that we're forced to be in clone a lot it balances out a fair amount.

 

P.S now I know you don't listen to me :-( 

[Metro]

I don't mind the suggestion being put up but I am not sure how I feel about it as a whole. I'll allow the community + founders to decide if this fits.

[Marvel]

-1

This kinda loops into the whole well “ex model has a jet pack bodygroupr so why can’t they have a jetpack” kinda deal. The current ruling for when to wear the beskar can easily change the next Kal or so to the point where we have Nulls running around in their Mando models 24/7 again. Overall I think the amount of people who can see cloaked people is already pretty high and the number shouldn’t keep increasing. I think the argument is kind of dull as well seeing as Din Djarin was the only Mandalorian ever seen to use that heat vision type dealio and it’s just too vague of a lore based argument. It’s like saying all ARC troopers should be able to see cloaked personnel because they have the ability in Battlefront II. The Null’s kits compensate for their lack of being able to see cloaks. Jetpacks and westars are plenty.

And yes this is a director/high command kind of decision and could have gone through a command meeting. 

Edited June 6, 2021 by Marvel
Extra

[CruorFlumine]

-1, Marvel made some great points. Either you have it or you dont.

[traditional]

-1

[Conrad]

Stealth in GMOD sucks. Inside of this game your really have only one option for stealth, and thats using a cloak. Outside of this stealth is almost impossible, because of this cloaking and rules of who can see cloaked enemies has to be carefully considered in order to not unbalance it. If you have too many people with this ability to see cloaked then stealth missions for CIS and BH's become impossible. However if not enough can see cloaked enemies then they get to run around basically impossible to be stopped.

Right now we have 8 Grey RC+4 Delta+5 Bad Batch+Infinite(potentially) SO that can see cloaked, i'd say on average during not dead times we have around 6~(give or take a bit) people that can see cloaks on at a time. This is too many. It needs to be possible for BH's and CIS to have a chance to get in and out successfully without meta gaming. Perhaps if you wanted someone to lose the ability to see cloaks, and then you gain it (on all Armour) (also good luck getting someone to give up their ability to do something in game) I'd plust one this, but for now

-1

[Black]

1 hour ago, Conrad said:

Stealth in GMOD sucks. Inside of this game your really have only one option for stealth, and thats using a cloak. Outside of this stealth is almost impossible, because of this cloaking and rules of who can see cloaked enemies has to be carefully considered in order to not unbalance it. If you have too many people with this ability to see cloaked then stealth missions for CIS and BH's become impossible. However if not enough can see cloaked enemies then they get to run around basically impossible to be stopped.

Right now we have 8 Grey RC+4 Delta+5 Bad Batch+Infinite(potentially) SO that can see cloaked, i'd say on average during not dead times we have around 6~(give or take a bit) people that can see cloaks on at a time. This is too many. It needs to be possible for BH's and CIS to have a chance to get in and out successfully without meta gaming. Perhaps if you wanted someone to lose the ability to see cloaks, and then you gain it (on all Armour) (also good luck getting someone to give up their ability to do something in game) I'd plust one this, but for now

-1

agreed. -1

[Paladin_]

-1. How are you supposed to tell if the guy cloaked is in Mando Armor if you can't see him and what he is wearing? Also RC and SO can already see Cloaked users so adding more to that list would make it harder for cloakers to do anything.
 

[Eclipse]

1 hour ago, Paladin_ said:

How are you supposed to tell if the guy cloaked is in Mando Armor

The Null aren't doing the cloaking. We're just detecting who is cloaked with this suggestion when we put on our Mando Armor. 

[Sixta]

9 hours ago, Marvel said:

-1

This kinda loops into the whole well “ex model has a jet pack bodygroupr so why can’t they have a jetpack” kinda deal. The current ruling for when to wear the beskar can easily change the next Kal or so to the point where we have Nulls running around in their Mando models 24/7 again. Overall I think the amount of people who can see cloaked people is already pretty high and the number shouldn’t keep increasing. I think the argument is kind of dull as well seeing as Din Djarin was the only Mandalorian ever seen to use that heat vision type dealio and it’s just too vague of a lore based argument. It’s like saying all ARC troopers should be able to see cloaked personnel because they have the ability in Battlefront II. The Null’s kits compensate for their lack of being able to see cloaks. Jetpacks and westars are plenty.

And yes this is a director/high command kind of decision and could have gone through a command meeting. 

basically this! -1

[Dyn]

I don't think it is necessarily an unreasonable request given most of SOBDE from what I thought could see cloakers. At the same time, most of SOBDE can see cloakers. So if you find your issue is you approach too fast to the cloaker location and cannot act on them, perhaps the situation is the hold the location for your allies to catch up or try to find a different way to secure the area in cooperation with RCs? Not going to really throw a + or - because I can see both sides.

5 hours ago, Conrad said:

Right now we have 8 Grey RC+4 Delta+5 Bad Batch+Infinite(potentially) SO that can see cloaked,

Just gonna drop a small correction here. We tend to cap our SO when we feel we are getting too many members at a time (typically around 12 people) or if we feel their numbers are greatly over the other parts of 21st (GM and KU respectively). I think your point is still correct there is a lot of spotters, just didn't want misinfo spread about SO numbers.

[Merrill]

-1

Yeah, everyone already summed it up pretty well, plus, lets not forget that some peeps will have a hard time discerning when a Null is in their Mando armor or when they are not, since a portion of clone armor designs are really similar to the Mando's to begin with

 

[Foxey]

There are plenty of reasons to believe that the Nulls would be capable of detecting cloaked enemies. The Republic Commando series outlines what the Null's Beskar'gam was capable of in a few passages, such as "Good things, helmets: nobody could hear what was being said on the comlink outside of the buy'ce unless you let them. Ordo was using all his state-of-the-art armor sensors to check for metal fatigue, leaks, and other mechanical faults. Skirata noted the readouts being relayed to his spanking-new HUD display" and "Ordo activated his helmet's infrared filter, adjusted it to its most sensitive setting, and cast around on a square search of a twenty-meter grid . . . Ordo switched from infrared to the penetrating sensor. It was like checking in mail slots, a tedious progression from one hole to the next." 
And those are just excerpts from like two chapters of True Colors, I'm pretty sure I recall many other instances of high-tech thermal imaging or other types of sensors. There's no hiding from a Null. In lore, at least. Their clone armor was incredibly high-tech as well, with them making several upgrades to it throughout the course of the war- so I don't think it's too much of a stretch for their armor to be capable of the same thing the RC Armor is capable of (especially since the Nulls could take their pick of any Republic Technology they wanted seeing as they could get into anything and everything). 

+1, allow it overall and not just when wearing Beskar'gam. I think the Null-Class ARCs being the only members of SOBDE who cannot see cloaked individuals has always been a bit annoying and dumb. Just round it out that all of SOBDE can see cloakers. As someone who owns the Guild Spy whitelist I can tell you that even with 10 people online who can see cloakers it's still possible to sneak around, you just actually have to try to be stealthy, which is much more fun and rewarding anyways. 

[Merrill]

1 hour ago, Foxey said:

There are plenty of reasons to believe that the Nulls would be capable of detecting cloaked enemies. The Republic Commando series outlines what the Null's Beskar'gam was capable of in a few passages, such as "Good things, helmets: nobody could hear what was being said on the comlink outside of the buy'ce unless you let them. Ordo was using all his state-of-the-art armor sensors to check for metal fatigue, leaks, and other mechanical faults. Skirata noted the readouts being relayed to his spanking-new HUD display" and "Ordo activated his helmet's infrared filter, adjusted it to its most sensitive setting, and cast around on a square search of a twenty-meter grid . . . Ordo switched from infrared to the penetrating sensor. It was like checking in mail slots, a tedious progression from one hole to the next." 
And those are just excerpts from like two chapters of True Colors, I'm pretty sure I recall many other instances of high-tech thermal imaging or other types of sensors. There's no hiding from a Null. In lore, at least. Their clone armor was incredibly high-tech as well, with them making several upgrades to it throughout the course of the war- so I don't think it's too much of a stretch for their armor to be capable of the same thing the RC Armor is capable of (especially since the Nulls could take their pick of any Republic Technology they wanted seeing as they could get into anything and everything). 

+1, allow it overall and not just when wearing Beskar'gam. I think the Null-Class ARCs being the only members of SOBDE who cannot see cloaked individuals has always been a bit annoying and dumb. Just round it out that all of SOBDE can see cloakers. As someone who owns the Guild Spy whitelist I can tell you that even with 10 people online who can see cloakers it's still possible to sneak around, you just actually have to try to be stealthy, which is much more fun and rewarding anyways. 

Good logic, but correct me if I'm wrong, the macrobinoculars/visors are capable of the same thing, so then does that mean just everyone can see cloak? Most models, if not all, even have the bodygrouper for the visors available

[Foxey]

6 minutes ago, Merrill said:

Good logic, but correct me if I'm wrong, the macrobinoculars/visors are capable of the same thing, so then does that mean just everyone can see cloak? Most models, if not all, even have the bodygrouper for the visors available

Detecting cloaked individuals is tricky, as small-scale cloaking technology like on the server isn't really a thing we see in star wars. But I'd argue it would take some extra-high level of technology to be able to detect cloakers if they were a thing in Star Wars the way they are ingame. We know the Nulls have access to the highest level of technology out there, both in their Clone Armor as members of SOBDE and in their Beskar as literal trillionaires. I outlined the foundation for lore due to the fact that some above outlined flaws in the initial post's lore reasoning, but my main argument is that there's no real reason that the Nulls wouldn't / shouldn't be able to do what the rest of SOBDE can. It's four jobs (five if also applied to Kal, which imo it should be- as a a full-battalion permission), so it's not going to shatter the balance of detecting cloaked individuals, and in fact it may even work as a counterbalance to Guild Spies who purchase and use Jetpacks. 

[Merrill]

2 minutes ago, Foxey said:

Detecting cloaked individuals is tricky, as small-scale cloaking technology like on the server isn't really a thing we see in star wars. But I'd argue it would take some extra-high level of technology to be able to detect cloakers if they were a thing in Star Wars the way they are ingame. We know the Nulls have access to the highest level of technology out there, both in their Clone Armor as members of SOBDE and in their Beskar as literal trillionaires. I outlined the foundation for lore due to the fact that some above outlined flaws in the initial post's lore reasoning, but my main argument is that there's no real reason that the Nulls wouldn't / shouldn't be able to do what the rest of SOBDE can. It's four jobs (five if also applied to Kal, which imo it should be- as a a full-battalion permission), so it's not going to shatter the balance of detecting cloaked individuals, and in fact it may even work as a counterbalance to Guild Spies who purchase and use Jetpacks. 

Not necessarily. As with anything electronic, anything that requires higher amount of power will generate heat, which I would imagine a personal cloaking device would. Even if it had cooling to try and return itself to the temperature of its surroundings, there would still be a visible outline of the person. You might miss it if you aren't paying attention, but you would definitely see it. 

As for shattering the balance of detecting cloaking individuals and counterbalancing, a couple of things. Firstly, how can you guarantee that it will not shatter the balance of cloak detection? Technically speaking, you can completely lock down the base from cloakers by having an RC in SHB hallway, both MHB hallways (with the big doors closed), and the entrance to that CiC/Control Room overseeing MHB. Hell, you could remove 3 RC from the equation by just having one RC at the entrance to armory, and then cloakers are unable to get into anything important.

For counterbalancing Guild Spies w/ Jetpacks, a couple other things. First and foremost, jetpacks on the black market on damn expensive. 1000 renown for the Spy job, followed by the costs for being in a clan, followed by 200 renown per jetpack. Tbh, doesn't seem like something that is much worth countering. Secondly, no matter how good cloaking tech is, there's no such thing as a silent jetpack. An RC can just follow the sound and wait for them to land. Finally, why is countering another player-job something we are striving for? This isn't a PvP server, where you get VBucks for your new skins and emotes. This is a RP server, and setting up jobs in order to counter others is kinda cringe. Just RP that shit. Problem solved.

[Foxey]

17 minutes ago, Merrill said:

Not necessarily. As with anything electronic, anything that requires higher amount of power will generate heat, which I would imagine a personal cloaking device would. Even if it had cooling to try and return itself to the temperature of its surroundings, there would still be a visible outline of the person. You might miss it if you aren't paying attention, but you would definitely see it. 

I mean I would argue that's untrue given that in the Star Wars Canon the only cloaking devices we know of are entire starships and it is not thermal imaging that is their weakness but magnetic signature detection. And I would be willing to bet that something as large as a starship would certainly emit more heat signature than a single human being in a temperature-regulated suit of armor (which is the entire point of the bodyglove worn under beskar'gam and clone armor). 
 

19 minutes ago, Merrill said:

As for shattering the balance of detecting cloaking individuals and counterbalancing, a couple of things. Firstly, how can you guarantee that it will not shatter the balance of cloak detection? Technically speaking, you can completely lock down the base from cloakers by having an RC in SHB hallway, both MHB hallways (with the big doors closed), and the entrance to that CiC/Control Room overseeing MHB. Hell, you could remove 3 RC from the equation by just having one RC at the entrance to armory, and then cloakers are unable to get into anything important.

I can't "guarantee" anything, but as I said in my original argument I really don't believe having a few more people to detect cloakers is that big of a deal. The cloak is about stealth, it's about avoiding people who you know can detect you and slipping through doors that are either not being monitored or are being opened already by passers-by. While yes once the Republic is alerted to your presence it is easy to lock down the base and ensure they cannot escape, there is nothing stopping you from sheltering in place for a few moments or attempting some unique roleplay to escape your situation. As I said originally this type of deadlock encourages RP and more exciting gameplay. 
 

23 minutes ago, Merrill said:

This is a RP server, and setting up jobs in order to counter others is kinda cringe. Just RP that shit. Problem solved.

That's a good point, there is no real reason to make decisions based on countering other jobs on the server- and yeah, this is an RP server. I added the remark about countermeasure to spies and other cloaking jobs with Jetpacks as an added bonus, and not the main reason. The main point of my entire argument is simply that the entire SOBDE Battalion (literally just 4 or 5 additional jobs) should be able to detect cloaking individuals. 

There are obviously things here that we will not agree upon, even down to the technical details. But at the end of the day I believe that all of SOBDE might as well be able to see cloakers and I have clearly outlined my reasoning. If you wish to disagree, that is entirely up to you. 

[Venom]

Void this suggestion, no longer valid.

[Naffen]

This suggestion has been VOIDED.

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