Why no setting spawns?

[Brian-Limmon]

Question: Why exactly is it that GMs won't be allowed to set spawns for anyone ever, even just on the event server? It's obviously one of the most useful features we could get but it seems we never will and I can't really figure any reason why that might be the case

Comments/Concerns: I asked around before and noone else really seems to know any reason beyond its just what's been decided by founders/devs, I was hoping to at least get an answer with the suggestion for it the other day but it just got denied without reason.

Staff Member you're asking: Anyone who was able to make that decision

Additional info:

[Forseen]

The tool that we have is locked to Super Admin by default as per the person that made the tool.

Also, we have tactical insertions, you can just use those on event server as GM's can spawn them for players.

[Brian-Limmon]

9 hours ago, Forseen said:

The tool that we have is locked to Super Admin by default as per the person that made the tool.

Also, we have tactical insertions, you can just use those on event server as GM's can spawn them for players.

Is there a reason that a command can't be developed specifically for the server? I was under the impression from asking around that it wasn't a technical limitation like this, just a hard rule we had for some reason. Is that the only reason we don't have it?

Also tacs are not an efficient way of setting spawns as in order for you to actually be able to utilize them dynamically in an event you have to stop everything and make sure every single person has a tac and that they use it in the intended spot which some people almost definitely won't. Plus you have to do this for every person that joins late, even if you only keep the same spot for the whole event. And this isn't even considering full server deployments where it just isn't realistic :/

Edited February 20, 2022 by Brian-Limmon

[Maverick]

6 minutes ago, Brian-Limmon said:

Also tacs are not an efficient way of setting spawns as in order for you to actually be able to utilize them dynamically in an event you have to stop everything and make sure every single person has a tac and that they use it in the intended spot which some people almost definitely won't.

Not efficient for you maybe. Pre-plan this part and take 5 minutes or don't allow them to set tacs. After the 5 minute window(should you choose to use this as an example) put an advert out no more tacs and continue on. Usually if you are doing events that require checkpoints, logic would dictate you have other game helpers to do this for you.
 

8 minutes ago, Brian-Limmon said:

Plus you have to do this for every person that joins late, even if you only keep the same spot for the whole event.

If you are keeping the same spot then only 1 tac is needed? Tacs arent for everyone, Last i checked its a store item that people buy to have that advantage and luckily you get to tell them if they are allowed to use it for your event.

 

10 minutes ago, Brian-Limmon said:

And this isn't even considering full server deployments where it just isn't realistic :/

Changing spawns for full server deployments isn't realistic either. It will get in the way of someone else's future events/deployments and then we'll eventually hear complaints about that too.

 

[Brian-Limmon]

10 minutes ago, Maverick said:

Not efficient for you maybe. Pre-plan this part and take 5 minutes or don't allow them to set tacs. After the 5 minute window(should you choose to use this as an example) put an advert out no more tacs and continue on. Usually if you are doing events that require checkpoints, logic would dictate you have other game helpers to do this for you.

That doesn't change the fact that it's an unnecessary set of steps when having the ability to set spawns would make the process 10x smoother and easier to manage, allowing GMs to concentrate on other factors in the event and making them better. Plus just relying on people not to be dumb and actually do it within that 5 minute window is definitely a fair thing to expect, but still not certain and will lead to people being excluded just for being dumb, not paying attention or being AFK at the wrong time.

 

12 minutes ago, Maverick said:

If you are keeping the same spot then only 1 tac is needed? Tacs arent for everyone, Last i checked its a store item that people buy to have that advantage and luckily you get to tell them if they are allowed to use it for your event.

Idk what you mean by this tbh, if tacs aren't for everyone then how are they ever meant to be used to allow everyone to spawn where you want them to for the event. Plus the whole idea behind using them in that way is that GMs just spawn tacs for the people who don't have them and, yes, while people only have to set it 1 time in the event if spawns never change, people who join late still have to go through the same process that everyone went through at the start, except during the actual running of the event which usually means either the GM or a GH if there are any have to drop what they're doing just so said person can actually properly participate in the event, and this can happen multiple times per event.

 

15 minutes ago, Maverick said:

Changing spawns for full server deployments isn't realistic either. It will get in the way of someone else's future events/deployments and then we'll eventually hear complaints about that too.

Changing spawns wouldn't be permenant, at the very least it shouldn't be I don't see why if it does get coded for the server it would be considering the fact that not all maps have the same scale and having the same spawn between maps could mean actually just spawning into the void which obviously wouldn't work, so the spawns would only be set until the map changes in which case it wouldn't get in the way of any future events because future GMs will either A. change the map and spawn will reset anyway or B. if they stay on the same map just set the spawn where they want anyway

[Heart]

Devil’s Advocate, what if I don’t want the spawns to change? I get on ES and all the spawns are ruined for a certain map. Sure, I go through and set them all back, but then I miss one group (I.E, RANCOR) and suddenly a whole battalion gets spawned into droids in a one life.

 

plus, AFAIK, the commands for staff are linked between servers, so allowing it on ES would put it on Main (correct me if I’m wrong) 

 

plus plus, this isn’t a necessity by any means. It’s a little more work and effort, but it’s not an obscene amount that this change would ultimately eliminate. Most maps’ default spawns are pretty good on ES.
 

Tl:Dr It’s less of a “High staff don’t want you to have setspawns/jail” and more of “There’s never been a need for setspawns.” Spawns are saved by map and I don’t feel like cleaning your spawns on a fresh map load.

[Brian-Limmon]

5 minutes ago, Heart said:

Devil’s Advocate, what if I don’t want the spawns to change? I get on ES and all the spawns are ruined for a certain map. Sure, I go through and set them all back, but then I miss one group (I.E, RANCOR) and suddenly a whole battalion gets spawned into droids in a one life.

 

plus, AFAIK, the commands for staff are linked between servers, so allowing it on ES would put it on Main (correct me if I’m wrong) 

 

plus plus, this isn’t a necessity by any means. It’s a little more work and effort, but it’s not an obscene amount that this change would ultimately eliminate. Most maps’ default spawns are pretty good on ES.
 

Tl:Dr It’s less of a “High staff don’t want you to have setspawns/jail” and more of “There’s never been a need for setspawns.” Spawns are saved by map and I don’t feel like cleaning your spawns on a fresh map load.

All of these problems are just from assuming it will function in a very oddly specific way. Spawns don't have to be set job by job, other servers have no issue categorizing the player jobs into "setspawnrepublic" and the EJ jobs as "setspawncis", these are extremely specific issues that can easily be fixed just by coding the command in a certain way and I don't see why they should take away from the utility of the command overall. And as I've already said, they shouldn't be permenant, they probably even couldn't be permenant between map changes as different maps have different scales and having the same spawn between maps could result in people just spawning in the void, so I'm not sure why it would ever be coded that way.

Also you're *really* underestimating the utility that this would have, you're saying most maps default spawns are good as if GMs always just use a map the way it comes, which is far from the case, often times there is an obscene amount of building that can completely transform the layout of a map to where it is unrecognizable from its default state, just look at any of the flatgrass deployments there have been, you can't really just have a "pretty good" default spawn with how massively changeable map layouts can be. And this would eliminate a lot of unnecessary work as already stated earlier with the whole tac process which never goes smoothely and often has to be revisited mid event.

[Heart]

6 minutes ago, Brian-Limmon said:

All of these problems are just from assuming it will function in a very oddly specific way. Spawns don't have to be set job by job, other servers have no issue categorizing the player jobs into "setspawnrepublic" and the EJ jobs as "setspawncis", these are extremely specific issues that can easily be fixed just by coding the command in a certain way and I don't see why they should take away from the utility of the command overall. And as I've already said, they shouldn't be permenant, they probably even couldn't be permenant between map changes as different maps have different scales and having the same spawn between maps could result in people just spawning in the void, so I'm not sure why it would ever be coded that way.

Also you're *really* underestimating the utility that this would have, you're saying most maps default spawns are good as if GMs always just use a map the way it comes, which is far from the case, often times there is an obscene amount of building that can completely transform the layout of a map to where it is unrecognizable from its default state, just look at any of the flatgrass deployments there have been, you can't really just have a "pretty good" default spawn with how massively changeable map layouts can be. And this would eliminate a lot of unnecessary work as already stated earlier with the whole tac process which never goes smoothely and often has to be revisited mid event.

I'm speaking as the plugin currently exists, because anything that is "Dev Work Required" either never happens or takes a long time if it isn't already planned. As it currently exists, the jobs are individual in category. Spawns are saved by map, thats why we don't have to reset when we go from venator to anaxes. Also i've never been to a flatgrass deployment; if you need checkpoints set then you should allow for natural pauses to allow tac-spawning, and regrouping with medkits, ammo, etc. So everyone in the event can take a tiny break. It's a win-win in my eyes. 

[Brian-Limmon]

1 minute ago, Heart said:

I'm speaking as the plugin currently exists, because anything that is "Dev Work Required" either never happens or takes a long time if it isn't already planned. As it currently exists, the jobs are individual in category. Spawns are saved by map, thats why we don't have to reset when we go from venator to anaxes. Also i've never been to a flatgrass deployment; if you need checkpoints set then you should allow for natural pauses to allow tac-spawning, and regrouping with medkits, ammo, etc. So everyone in the event can take a tiny break. It's a win-win in my eyes. 

First part is sad but fair enough. I'm mainly talking about us getting an actual command developed so that things like spawns being saved between maps isn't an issue as other servers have already figured out. Also I used the flatgrass thing as an example of how default spawns are really limiting in events, flatgrass events essentially just cannot use the default spawn so people don't consider it in designing their events which leads to a lot more creative freedom taken by GMs in their dupe designs, but people often don't take the freedoms they could be just because of the default spawn thing, they often centre their entire map designs around it which sucks. And the issue with changing spawns when using tacs isn't the pacing of the event or anything like that, it's just the sheer fact that there will be people who don't listen to it and can't participate in the event without GMs having to shift their focus solely onto them in the middle of doing something else, and while you could say it is their own fault just leave them out, it would still be a shame that people have a worse experience with an event just because they were being dumb, weren't listening or even just went afk at the time, so the system we have now takes away from player enjoyment and the ease of running events by comparison to the command system on other servers

[Forseen]

There's been a lot of things said since the last 2 hours. Holy Shit. Let me break down some things said in here and give some information.

2 hours ago, Brian-Limmon said:

Is there a reason that a command can't be developed specifically for the server? I was under the impression from asking around that it wasn't a technical limitation like this, just a hard rule we had for some reason. Is that the only reason we don't have it?

There's no technical limitation to this, but it's not as easy to produce as you might think it would be. Everything takes time, some things take a LOT of time. Put it this way, something as simple as a gun in our weapon base takes roughly 50,000+ lines of code that all have to be written a certain way, in different files and locations that need to interact with eachother and 1 tiny mistake in any location as small as a single comma out of place will break all of it (I started to do the math for this, but gave up at around 5,200 lines of code). The amount of effort that would go into adding a spawn system, when we already have one and we have tactical insertions available isn't really worth it. It can be worked around and isn't really a necessity, so even if we decided to create something here, it would be one of the lowest items on our priority list and newer things will often overtake it meaning if it is developed it may take years before it becomes relevant enough for us to create it.

 

2 hours ago, Brian-Limmon said:

Also tacs are not an efficient way of setting spawns as in order for you to actually be able to utilize them dynamically in an event you have to stop everything and make sure every single person has a tac and that they use it in the intended spot which some people almost definitely won't. Plus you have to do this for every person that joins late, even if you only keep the same spot for the whole event. And this isn't even considering full server deployments where it just isn't realistic :/

You can use them quite well dynamically in an event. You forget that before we were founders and developers we were members of the community. I myself was a Game Master for a very long time, back between Icefuse (pre-split) and Synergy (post-split) in which I often ran deployments using tactical insertions as spawnpoints. Someone else has already commented on this post (that being @Heart) that has also gone through this same process and time. If planned out well enough (as mentioned by @Maverick who has also spent time during this), you can make it dynamic, by having your players hold a checkpoint or have a segment where players are waiting for RP to happen were a commanding officer may be talking to an event job, and use the advert function to inform them they can set tactical insertions, and have a helper and/or yourself go and spawn them for the players. As for those that come in late or don't place their tac when told or place their tac outside of the area you want, you can destroy their tac and hold them accountable or allow for the battalion to deal with it as all battalions will generally have a staff member in their TS during events.

 

2 hours ago, Maverick said:

Changing spawns for full server deployments isn't realistic either. It will get in the way of someone else's future events/deployments and then we'll eventually hear complaints about that too.

What Maverick means to say by this post here, is explained better by Heart in the following statement;

1 hour ago, Heart said:

Spawns are saved by map, thats why we don't have to reset when we go from venator to anaxes.

Which is completely true. Every time a spawn point is set, it saves by map (meaning that it will save the map name and location vectors to say when it's on map X set job Y to spawn at location Z) to the server's database for the location of the spawn & it keeps adding up the more spawn points you put down. The other thing is there will be plenty of people that don't delete spawn points that will cause issues to future events (as pointed out by @Heart) and making them temporary is pretty useless as that's just a tac insert with extra steps.

 

The other main issue here, which hasn't really been mentioned by anyone so I'll address it anyways is that having another system of spawning will always conflict with Tactical Insertions and will often cause issues or for the Tactical Insertion to override the spawn point anyways as is set up for the tactical insertion to do. The Tactical Insertion, isn't something that we coded ourselves, thus making this pretty impossible. As it stands, on the Main Server, tac inserts also override spawn points that are set and even jail positions. If it was something we could change about it, do you not think we would have done it to stop the jail position overriding by now when the community started in 2017 and it's now 2022?

 

TL;DR it's impractical and very low priority quality of life change that isn't needed as there are other methods that can be used to obtain the same result.

[Dono]

Why not just give access to the blue spawn box entity thing that is already in the q menu? I’ve used them before and they are pretty easy to set spawns with, plus they can be moved around dynamically with a physgun. 

[Brian-Limmon]

Also just thinking about this again, if spawns are able to be set by anyone then it cancels out the issue of them being permanently set on a map because people can just set them to wherever they want to again. The only time it would conceivably be an issue is if a GM for whatever reason doesn't realise where they spawn in and knows a maps default spawn point OFF BY HEART and only realises once people connect... which even then only creates a tiny issue where they have to TP some people after correctly setting the spawn.

Honestly even allowing the tool we already have to be used by SA+ would still work considering this. (Also there's already a "set all spawns" option so missing out a single job would also not be an issue

[Maverick]

Using Tactical Insertions is still a much more viable option.

[Bacta]

if i was able to set spawns it will fox so much and open up way more opportunities, saying it’s fine how it is limits creativity, we can use both it’s a. command, setting spawns will make setting up easier, twists easier, i can write down 24 commen events people will be able to do, instead of spamming 100 tickets of need a to back cause tac was destroyedt

[Katy]

3 minutes ago, Maverick said:

Using Tactical Insertions is still a much more viable option.

Tactical insertions create a lot of lag if it's a decent sized deployment. Unless the spawn tool also creates lag, the spawn tool is better

[Heart]

For the many years that deployments have been done, I've yet to see one be completely ruined or shafted by not having setspawns.

Even when I had the ability to set spawns, it never occurred to me to use it, not for lack of creativity (I dare you to challenge mine) but because there was never a practical reason to have checkpoints/custom initial spawns.

Also lag from tacs is minimal on ES. Hell, you can spam 25 hunter-choppers on ES before feeling any lag, Tacs do not contribute, they're low-poly few-lines of code with an NPC (Yes, the hologram is coded as an NPC stuck in a pose). 25 tacs is the same as 25 miniature NPCs with no AI and 25 props. If that causes lag, then we better remove SOBDE because their dupe is 10x that on MAIN SERVER

 

[Brian-Limmon]

1 hour ago, Heart said:

For the many years that deployments have been done, I've yet to see one be completely ruined or shafted by not having setspawns.

Even when I had the ability to set spawns, it never occurred to me to use it, not for lack of creativity (I dare you to challenge mine) but because there was never a practical reason to have checkpoints/custom initial spawns.

Also lag from tacs is minimal on ES. Hell, you can spam 25 hunter-choppers on ES before feeling any lag, Tacs do not contribute, they're low-poly few-lines of code with an NPC (Yes, the hologram is coded as an NPC stuck in a pose). 25 tacs is the same as 25 miniature NPCs with no AI and 25 props. If that causes lag, then we better remove SOBDE because their dupe is 10x that on MAIN SERVER

 

This is a very closed mindset. Noone ever said that an event was ruined by not having setspawns because noone has designed their events with that command in mind. Just because you never personally had any ideas or ambitions for events that would only work/be made a lot easier by setspawns doesn't mean there aren't others on the GM team who even just considering this as a possibility for the first time can think of some ways they would like to utilise it.

[Finn]

I don't see the big issue. Just use Tacs. They don't cause a huge lag increase, they're simpler to use for players and regular GMs, the Spawn points are hardcoded for SAs already, which means development resources need to be used to updated, and Tacs are more versatile.

[Bacta]

6 hours ago, Heart said:

For the many years that deployments have been done, I've yet to see one be completely ruined or shafted by not having setspawns.

Even when I had the ability to set spawns, it never occurred to me to use it, not for lack of creativity (I dare you to challenge mine) but because there was never a practical reason to have checkpoints/custom initial spawns.

Also lag from tacs is minimal on ES. Hell, you can spam 25 hunter-choppers on ES before feeling any lag, Tacs do not contribute, they're low-poly few-lines of code with an NPC (Yes, the hologram is coded as an NPC stuck in a pose). 25 tacs is the same as 25 miniature NPCs with no AI and 25 props. If that causes lag, then we better remove SOBDE because their dupe is 10x that on MAIN SERVER

 

it has been tested and shown multiple times through multiple ways that having many tacs being placed down hurts the server, I have helped/gmed over 70 events in my time on synergy the amount of wrangling i have had to do with the time to control people using tactical insertion is insane, id rather let them be more immersed and do some crazy stuff that will avoid any issues instead of wasting the first 15 minutes of my events spawning tacs, and when someone shoots them having 5 staff tickets

Edited February 26, 2022 by Bacta

[Heart]

3 minutes ago, Bacta said:

it has been tested and shown multiple times through multiple ways that having many tacs being placed down hurts the server, I have helped/gmed over 200 events in my time on synergy the amount of wrangling i have had to do with the time to control people using tactical insertion is insane, id rather let them be more immersed and do some crazy stuff that will avoid any issues instead of wasting the first 15 minutes of my events spawning tacs, and when someone shoots them having 5 staff tickets

Sounds like a skill issue, and cap

 

I would suggest getting better helpers, or not allowing people to place tacs in zones of active fire.

[Hanz]

Being able to set spawns would be so amazing. It would reduce the amount of wait time in the beginning of the event, it would reduce lag, it would allow checkpoint systems where you set a spawn if they get a certain objective without mid event having to give everyone a new tac and telling them to put it down. If this was possible it would be so amazing. Would it be used in every event? No, probably not even most. Would this open up the chances for new more creative events that haven't been done before? 100%.

I also just don't see any negatives if this was allowed and is possible.

Edited February 26, 2022 by Hanz

[Bacta]

  

I love heart but i must defend my honor i fibbed the data

Edited February 26, 2022 by Bacta

[Forseen]

Why did this turn into a game master comparison?? @Bacta sorry buddy, I love you and you do great things but @Heart in his prime back in the day would have made your events look like 1/10s.

I'm going to point out something here, that encompasses really well what the Founder aspect of this is, and I don't understand why you guys shit on it...
 

On 2/27/2022 at 5:40 AM, Finn said:

They don't cause a huge lag increase, they're simpler to use for players and regular GMs, the Spawn points are hardcoded for SAs already, which means development resources need to be used to updated

By SA here, Finn is referring to SuperAdmin which is Garrys Mod game code for * access or access to everything, i.e. Founder.

I'm not going to restate what I already said. Instead let me quote it.

On 2/21/2022 at 4:30 AM, Forseen said:

Put it this way, something as simple as a gun in our weapon base takes roughly 50,000+ lines of code that all have to be written a certain way, in different files and locations that need to interact with eachother and 1 tiny mistake in any location as small as a single comma out of place will break all of it (I started to do the math for this, but gave up at around 5,200 lines of code). The amount of effort that would go into adding a spawn system, when we already have one and we have tactical insertions available isn't really worth it. It can be worked around and isn't really a necessity, so even if we decided to create something here, it would be one of the lowest items on our priority list and newer things will often overtake it meaning if it is developed it may take years before it becomes relevant enough for us to create it.

Now in saying this, the conversation has seemed to have moved away from "Make a new system" and more towards "update the current to allow us to use it". The problem here is as stated, there's a lot of code to look through for this system, and the code would need to be heavily altered as it is set to work with the base Garrys Mod "SuperAdmin" rank and not the D3A system which is very custom and has limited ability for it to integrate into other systems as to how exclusive the D3A system is due to it's creator not being one that likes to share his things too often.

TL:DR - The amount of effort is not worth the outcome right now when there's a current work around (TAC INSERTS). However it could be something we look at in future.

[Forseen]

Question Answered