Adding the specialization back to Foxtrot

[jacobfyfe]

Name: Jake | Gregor

RP Rank: Commander | Squad Lead

Suggestion: Adding the specializations back to Foxtrot

Implementation: 

Lore: RC Squads via Omega and Delta they have their squad specialization so it would make sense for us to as well  

Workshop content if applicable:
(If no workshop content, suggest a developer or put "Require Development")

If you are asking to add or change a job, fill out the following

Add or Change:
(Any job modification requires all this information)

Job:
Add job: Foxtrot Medic, Foxtrot EOD, Foxtrot ENG

Slots: one for each role

Description: Republic Commando squads had a specializations among each commando as shown from the squads on the server.

Model: Will use the current models 
(Provide the model string if on server Ex. models/player/synergy/cblake/ls_squad/ls_trp/lstrp.mdl (Get this from the Q menu)

Weapons: 
Med: Weapon_bactakit , cc2018_dc17m , cc2018_dc15p                                                                                                                                                                                                       ENG: cc2018_dc17m  , repair_tool_evan , weapon_hacktab , cc2018_dc15p (ENG would also be able to drop armor)
EOD:  cc2018_dc17m , cc2018_dc17maa , cc2018_dc17ms , cc2018_dc15p                                          

Other: Other: So with this addition of these specializations we would remove the current extra slot we have within Foxtrot. With these additions, it will give a more unique role to the members of Foxtrot, allowing for more of a squad dynamic and helping increase role play among the squad.

[Shockpoint]

I really think this is the best way forward, as each job doesn't just get "OOOH ALL JOBS GET ALL RC GUNS AND ATTACHMENTS AND SPECIALIZATIONS!" Every different class has pros and cons, only the EOD gets the special attachments and nothing else, the Medic and Engineer/Tech have base weapons and is are primarily support roles, and Gregor is the squadlead. Being in SOBDE still has the most intrinsic advantage weapons wise, and we just want to have a little more specialization than "Basic RC and Comradery"
+1

[Brak/Mainstay]

+1

[Bruise]

This is needed in my opinion the fifth slot can be sacrificed for these jobs +1

[Clutch]

+1 much needed. I think it separates and created new rp

Edited July 28, 2020 by Clutch

[Eclipse]

I thought it was replaced? As in I thought the slots that were once specialization have become taken up by a different job.

[Jeromeee]

+1 Will really let Foxtrot work really good together and gives each member a purpose and a feeling of being useful. 

[MisterFister]

+1

[Bro]

+1, this is what I wanted y'all to do <3

[Bleach]

+1 Fuck yeah

[Naffen]

literally called this on your last suggestion to add medic and here it is. +1 normal rc squad so it's gregor and 3 others?

[Shockpoint]

3 minutes ago, Naffen said:

literally called this on your last suggestion to add medic and here it is. +1 normal rc squad so it's gregor and 3 others?

Yup!

[Korm]

Might as well put foxtrot sobde back in.

 

+1 tho

[Life-]

+1

Edited August 2, 2020 by Life-

[Fyi]

5 minutes ago, Korm said:

Might as well put foxtrot sobde back in.

 

+1 tho

All the current members of Foxtrot are bonafide 212th. I get what you're saying, but these changes were meant to set Foxtrot apart from SOBDE, while still maintaining the RC squad aspect.

[Perri]

Even though its not SOBDE anymore, its still a RC Squad.

+1

Edited July 29, 2020 by Perri

[Matt-Matthos]

+1 finally lol 

[Aeon]

+1 they should still be SOBDE 

[Dennis]

+1

[Merrill]

+1

[Guac]

20 hours ago, Fyi said:

All the current members of Foxtrot are bonafide 212th. I get what you're saying, but these changes were meant to set Foxtrot apart from SOBDE, while still maintaining the RC squad aspect.

Said like a king

+1

[Conrad]

+1

[Comics]

They're 212th to the core and I will not have them wisked off to SOBDE. Those members are integral to my battalion.

While I don't really like the Squadification of Foxtrot group it's what gregor wants. It's not my company to tell what it wants so I'm happy to let you shape it as you desire

+1

[Arroyo]

+1

[DracoOdinson]

+1

[Katy]

+1 Foxtrot should share the same squad dynamic as the other squads

[Luckyy]

-1 the point of you guys not having these in the first place was to keep SO BDE separated from foxtrot, this is literally you guys going back to SO BDE without saying it

[Chambers]

1 hour ago, Lucky said:

-1 the point of you guys not having these in the first place was to keep SO BDE separated from foxtrot, this is literally you guys going back to SO BDE without saying it

Gotta agree with Lucky here.

The changes were made to it to more accurately follow lore and differ it from true SOBDE squads.

Foxtrot group was used more like front line troops during the war and numbers exceeded all the other squads combined, no record  of them operating in the same Squad dynamic as Delta, and Omega.

 

Purely for a server stand point as well, this change doesn't make sense and cheapens SOBDEs unique make-up and loadouts.

 

Sorry Bois but you get the armor and the weapons but it's not a true squad which is why it was added to 212th.

 

-1

[Comics]

1 hour ago, Lucky said:

-1 the point of you guys not having these in the first place was to keep SO BDE separated from foxtrot, this is literally you guys going back to SO BDE without saying it

They're still uniquely 212th.

They aren't even close to going back to SOBDE. they are all key members of the battalion and fall directly under cody (me). They will deploy with 212th. They will work with only 212th. 

They aren't running off with SOBDE, not under me atleast. 

To suggest this makes them SOBDE without saying it is just moronic. Squadification is different to total disconnect from 212th and having them become their own independent squad.

 

[Shockpoint]

26 minutes ago, Chambers said:

Gotta agree with Lucky here.

The changes were made to it to more accurately follow lore and differ it from true SOBDE squads.

Foxtrot group was used more like front line troops during the war and numbers exceeded all the other squads combined, no record  of them operating in the same Squad dynamic as Delta, and Omega.

 

Purely for a server stand point as well, this change doesn't make sense and cheapens SOBDEs unique make-up and loadouts.

 

Sorry Bois but you get the armor and the weapons but it's not a true squad which is why it was added to 212th.

 

-1

As much as I love you Chambers, I don't really agree.

We set it up so that each member of the squad has unique perks, but not the whole fucking SOBDE superbighuge arsenal. The only one that is ACTUALLY getting guns is the EOD. Engineer, Gregor, and Medic have the base weapons still. Its really hard to ask an RC squad, regardless of being in SOBDE or not, to just have a DC-17m, no specializations, and nothing special. Theres a reason most Republic Commandos died on geonosis, and that was because they had to be frontline soldiers. Because of how Gregor lost his squad the first time, he wouldn't really just be ready to be a standing infantryman again, because thats not what he was bred for. 

We aren't SOBDE. We don't pretend to be SOBDE. We don't ask for special treatment. Some SOBDE wanted us to put this up as they felt we didn't have enough as it stood. We aren't gonna have MDMK, or any loadouts as such, as we feel THAT would put us over the edge, hence why we took away the guns from the Tech and medic. They are just going to fill support roles, and the EOD is the only one to actually have the full four SODBE guns.

We are still drastically below SOBDE power wise, and it will remain that way, regardless of this posts success or failure.

[Jagger]

As the first Gregor who handled the transition of Foxtrot from SOBDE to 212th, I'd like to provide some information that would be beneficial to this thread.

I will speak to the best of my abilities without biases towards Foxtrot, 212th, or SOBDE. Thus I will abstain from voting.

Originally, members of SOBDE at the time were having trouble with up-keeping the size of the regiment with its numbers. They felt that SOBDE was "getting too big" and were looking to cut squads from SOBDE. We saw this before with the removal of Ion team in favor of NULL/BB, for example. So this time around, SOBDE wanted Foxtrot removed to help reduce the number of members to manage, and the squad itself was struggling to keep a consistently filled, active roster - despite many attempts to save it. It was the community's decision to transfer Foxtrot to 212th instead of completely removing it. Joah agreed with the idea, and made it as such. Later in late summer/fall, Joah, Jackson, and 212th HC at the time (myself included) talked about details of how the transfer of SOBDE Foxtrot to 212th Foxtrot would look like. 212th HC along with myself had meetings with SOBDE about what changes should be made, such as the agreement where the squad specialization loadouts (EOD, TECH, MDK, ETC.) would be limited, with the slots being increased to 5. This way it would make them different from SOBDE, and trade quality for quantity.

When I last spoke to Jackson on Teamspeak regarding the details of the Foxtrot changes, we discussed any last minute changes to the job before development and potential future changes. One thing that Jackson said was that after the change of Foxtrot jobs and their transition to the 212th, that Foxtrot can go ahead to make a server suggestion to add a medic job. We both came to the agreement that if this was going to be done, that a slot will be taking off the normal Foxtrot job to make room for a Foxtrot medic, and maybe only having a medkit in its loadout instead of a bacta-nade. This was back in around the late summer-fall when we were still on Endor base.

The first task I did was create and establish a PUBLIC Foxtrot document, delineating the changes being made to the squad in conjunction with its transfer from SOBDE to 212th. I included reasoning for all actions/details, reinforced by members of SOBDE, 212th, and Joah/Founders at the time (with some lore proof/reinforcement as well).

https://docs.google.com/document/d/18ZzSAPdHf5uEPZ_F4QdHJMqbvPvEUz6uH4OGvwEJo00/edit

Disclaimer: The document is not up to date. I last updated on 1/11/2020 before leaving Gregor for Cody. Still, this document includes relevant information about my sound reasoning for many of the changes - regarding the slot, job, loadout changes, lore perspective, roleplay rules/hierarchy, and more. This information was also accurately referenced from Founders, SOBDE, and 212th alike (at the time). 

It was my intention with the best of my capabilities to detach Foxtrot from SOBDE with a new identity (as can be seen in the document). Foxtrot was no longer specialized as they're no longer in the Specialized Operations Brigade. I created an entirely new, unique system within Foxtrot that was of high quality caliber, and was approved by many individuals within SOBDE and 212th. That is why there were different requirements, different training, no access to each other's comms in-game (unless it was a joint op and consent with both parties) - yet overall, I encouraged Foxtrot members to keep distance and hammered in that they were a different breed. That is also why I held Foxtrot to high standards, especially in roleplay as that was the strongest tool in their limited arsenal. The emphasis on roleplay created a standard that was even higher than was expected and maintained by SOBDE members.

Another point that needs to be highly addressed: Synergy Roleplay lore is DIFFERENT than Star Wars Universe Lore. This point cannot be stressed enough. What happens in Star Wars lore cannot be fully applicable to GMOD SWRP on Synergy in many instances. It's a sandbox, but it's not a 1:1 simulator of the Sci-Fi universe. A good example would be NULL. If members of SOBDE as NULL were to roleplay what NULL were in SW Lore (E.G. Republic Commando Novels), they would break MOST of the server rules in place. That is why NULL had a notorious, horrible reputation for 1-2 years since the start of Synergy - as they attempted to roleplay as close as possible to the real NULLs -- resulting in them being hated by most of the community.

You can say Foxtrot squad deserves a medic with medkit/bacta-nade, because it's an RC squad. You can say they don't, because they're not SOBDE. The whole point of their arsenal being stripped (as I stated in the document) was the fact that they're no longer specialized Republic Commandos. That is why I turned to roleplay, to make them stand out compared to SOBDE.

Whatever the case, I believe either outcome would be fair. I will personally state here however - that any more specialization on loadout that isn't standard RC equipment (E.G. DC-17m Blaster) should not be made in conjunction with the statement "Synergy Roleplay lore is DIFFERENT than Star Wars Universe Lore. " Plus on a gameplay stance, there should be a difference, especially since clone buffs were removed in favor of the new update we received along with the weapon revamp to make everything 'equal and standardized'.

I will conclude by stating that either outcome can be fair. The point of suggestions like these are so we can come together to help make a collective decision, to gauge our thoughts on the matter. 

 Personal Opinions:

- I foresaw this always being an issue. Foxtrot was an RC squad that by gameplay design, should've always been in SOBDE. Though due to the community and changes, it's now in 212th. We had to adapt and make unusual changes - even I felt weird as Gregor handling the ordeal. I don't think it going back to SOBDE again would be a great idea, as personally constant changes will just cause more problems. Foxtrot's limited lore was also rather contradicting - as they were set up to be an RC squad, yet were also considered to be troopers under the 212th attack battalion. It should also be important to mention that RC squad loadouts weren't consistent. Omega squad has 2 EODs (Darman/Corr), Atin as Tech, Niner as squad lead, Fi as medic. Delta squad has 1 Marksmen (Sev), 1 Tech (Fixer), 1 EOD (Scorch) and 1 Squad lead (Boss) - no medics. The gameplay adaptation for the server was to have squad leads be the medic, if there wasn't a designated medic. Maybe the fix here is to give Gregor a bacta-nade (kek)?

- Foxtrot should stay in 212th with a limited kit to keep both sides happy on the compromise. It was part of the agreement after all. I don't know if that includes adding a Foxtrot Medic or not. Personally though when I was in Foxtrot, I adapted my playstyle to be more cautious/focus more on teamwork as mistakes on health would be a bigger consequence without a medic. Though having a medic would make Foxtrot feel more like a unified squad, where the members can operate in new ways with access to medical equipment on a gameplay level - and even high staff saw no issue with it. It would also help with character creation to enhance RP within Foxtrot. Other players/troopers would also be much more thankful and feel assured that a Foxtrot medic would be patching them up in battle.

- Remember at the end of the day, everyone wants the best for their regiment. While SOBDE and Foxtrot are apart and now possess different identities, it also wouldn't hurt to cooperate with each other to help establish a fair and fun experience for the community.

 

Edited July 30, 2020 by Jagger
Update

[MasonA]

+1
I don't see any problem, yes they're supposed to be different to SOBDE because they are, but i see no problem with adding unique roles and specialised weapons for them classes, it adds a new sense of speciality to join foxtrot because at the minute it is just 'Commando' with just a rifle.
 

Adding the classes will give a new incentive to join foxtrot because of the specialised roles and will give foxtrot roles to do. Its not exactly buffing them as there's only one class and one job limit. At the minute, the only thing differentiating them from 212th and normal troopers is looking like RC and having a rifle. They will also have more things to do in an event instead of just shooting their DC-17m. 

 

[Darkk]

+1

[Inosuke]

This is gonna be a -1 from me, due to the reasons jagger has stated.

[Gears]

+1

[Elijah]

+1

[Mitchell]

Just some food for thought.
The reason why the squads had unique specializations for each of their members was because they were an independent group that usually only fought as those 4 members. So having a tech, eod, and medical trooper helps a lot.
Foxtrot isn't a squad, its a detachment of RC troopers who were a part of the 212th. They don't need specialized roles for their members because they are a part of a battalion that already has these specialized troopers.

Anyways, lore is dumb so here's a more server side reason why you shouldn't get these specializations.
You guys aren't SO BDE.
The only other group thats similar to you guys is Alpha ARCs, they have their unique loadouts however because they lost stuff to gain stuff.
You guys would only be gaining in this situation, and at that point you guys are basically right back to being discount SO BDE again without any of the oversight that SO BDE requires.

Also from reading some of what Comics has said, you guys are meant to be working with the 212th. Why the hell do you need an EOD, Tech. or medical trooper when you are working with usually the 2nd most populated battalion on the server?

-1 from me.

[Fyi]

18 minutes ago, Mitchell said:

Just some food for thought.
The reason why the squads had unique specializations for each of their members was because they were an independent group that usually only fought as those 4 members. So having a tech, eod, and medical trooper helps a lot.
Foxtrot isn't a squad, its a detachment of RC troopers who were a part of the 212th. They don't need specialized roles for their members because they are a part of a battalion that already has these specialized troopers.

Anyways, lore is dumb so here's a more server side reason why you shouldn't get these specializations.
You guys aren't SO BDE.
The only other group thats similar to you guys is Alpha ARCs, they have their unique loadouts however because they lost stuff to gain stuff.
You guys would only be gaining in this situation, and at that point you guys are basically right back to being discount SO BDE again without any of the oversight that SO BDE requires.

Also from reading some of what Comics has said, you guys are meant to be working with the 212th. Why the hell do you need an EOD, Tech. or medical trooper when you are working with usually the 2nd most populated battalion on the server?

-1 from me.

God, the whole point of this suggestion was to give incentive for joining Foxtrot and of course everyone gets themselves in a tizzy. This is NOT a suggestion to make Foxtrot more like SO BDE, this is a suggestion for Foxtrot to have more in their kit and not be glorified to the point of not having anything. Foxtrot has already been removed from SOBDE and had all their weapons taken away, this is a happy medium that will literally benefit ONLY the people in Foxtrot.

Alpha ARCs are similar, yes, but what does Alpha have that Foxtrot doesn't? Named characters? Weapons? SWEPs? I don't see the argument when everyone just minds their own business anyway. Obviously we don't want the server to be overinflated to the point where everyone has every weapon, but this literally isn't any different from squads already in the server.

[Luckyy]

2 minutes ago, Fyi said:

God, the whole point of this suggestion was to give incentive for joining Foxtrot and of course everyone gets themselves in a tizzy. This is NOT a suggestion to make Foxtrot more like SO BDE, this is a suggestion for Foxtrot to have more in their kit and not be glorified to the point of not having anything. Foxtrot has already been removed from SOBDE and had all their weapons taken away, this is a happy medium that will literally benefit ONLY the people in Foxtrot.

Alpha ARCs are similar, yes, but what does Alpha have that Foxtrot doesn't? Named characters? Weapons? SWEPs? I don't see the argument when everyone just minds their own business anyway. Obviously we don't want the server to be overinflated to the point where everyone has every weapon, but this literally isn't any different from squads already in the server.

His point is still the same as with comics stating that foxtrot is part of 212th and thereby works with 212th, if your sending them off basically always to do your own thing, again its just right back to SO BDE again, the statement that only "EOD" will get the guns is the same thing said by everyone, then the next guy comes along and complains that why don't all the slots have all the weapons, it's like Mitchell stated nothing is being lost in return for this, there is only gain, and in my whole stance yall getting a medic would have been perfectly fine 

[Fyi]

3 minutes ago, Lucky said:

His point is still the same as with comics stating that foxtrot is part of 212th and thereby works with 212th, if your sending them off basically always to do your own thing, again its just right back to SO BDE again, the statement that only "EOD" will get the guns is the same thing said by everyone, then the next guy comes along and complains that why don't all the slots have all the weapons, it's like Mitchell stated nothing is being lost in return for this, there is only gain, and in my whole stance yall getting a medic would have been perfectly fine 

Tbh, the medic thing would be fine as well, which is why Jake made the suggestion in the first place, but if we can get more things for the troopers in the future, then we're obviously going to make the suggestion for it. Why does there have to be perfect harmony in order for a suggestion to be accepted? The whole point of making suggestions is to either make the server better or have trooper jobs have more benefits. Currently, the Foxtrot whitelist has: the dc17m. That's it. What's special about that? Why would anyone go through the trouble of passing the tryout when they're basically not getting anything. That's how we advertise Foxtrot, that you're attempting to pass a tryout so you can exist within a squad and be a step above a normal trooper. Currently, that isn't the case, and this suggestion is what we hope will fix that. If Foxtrot gets compared to SOBDE for the rest of it's life then it'll never be able to get anything to make it better, and will stay in this state for the rest of its time.

[Shockpoint]

1 hour ago, Fyi said:

If Foxtrot gets compared to SOBDE for the rest of it's life then it'll never be able to get anything to make it better, and will stay in this state for the rest of its time.

This
Right here gentlemen
This right here
Yes



"Currently, the Foxtrot whitelist has: the dc17m."
This also is a thing.
We have 1 gun.
Thats the job.
For the hardest tryout in 212th.
That already has 2 other elite companies
You get.
One gun.
Even if this gets denied, could we get something of a compromise? Because the state of Foxtrot as it stands just makes me sad.

Edited August 2, 2020 by Shockpoint

[Zensras]

Oh boy.

In my opinion,   I feel like nothing you do will remove the comparison of Foxtrot and SOBDE.   Hell, If you want another pure example of this:  Go look at Havoc Squad and ask people what they think and you'll get the words "edgy SOBDE wannabes". 

Do I hear anyone complaining about it from SOBDE?

*CRICKETS*  

Of course not.

@Shockpoint is right,  They need a little more oof.

+1

Edited August 2, 2020 by Zensras
i hit post before I actually wrote

[Crimson]

Honestly, I lost some braincells reading this. So here we go from an SOBDE stand point and a Squad lead stand point of which they consulted me about this.

Foxtrot has little lore that states it's numbers and its members. Its simply stated as Foxtrot Group attached to the 212th Attack Battalion. That could mean yes they are Commandos issued to a Frontline Battalion, That could mean they are many teams. The point is that you are assuming. Now most if not all Republic Commandos are trained in all skills but specialize in one. For example Scorch is an EOD expert but can do marksmanship if needed. To quote the Republic Commando game is that "We are all pieces of a puzzle". Commando Squads are good because they need each other.

Now for the issue of "At this point they should be SOBDE". Many other jobs are equipped with special weapons. Foxtrot for now is given the DC-17m and let me tell you it is really good for what it is. Now that being said, it is the standard weapon of the Republic Commandos. Meaning like of ARCs are issued the Westar-M5 its their snowflake gun for being a "Deluxe Clone". For them getting all the attachments of the DC-17m is no issue to me personally. I think they should. They are Commandos afterall. As much as it might hurt you feelings to say that, they are decently hard to get into and are issued Commando Armor.  So they should be rewarded for their efforts and small spots open in general. Again not saying all non SOBDE Special Forces should get great weapons but again just stating my opinion. "BuT cRiMsOn, tHeY wIlL bE oFf bRaNd cOmAnDoS??!?!?" Do you think I really give a shit? No, SOBDE gets so many other advantages so they will never be as advantages as us. Thats not elitism thats the truth. Roll Bonus, Ability to go anywhere, Retarded big ass tryout dupes, Flexxing, IR, Edgy RP, You fucking Name it. Giving them Weapons and special roles really doesn't change how they operate now. Try to learn before you make assumptions. 

Sorry for the rant but it is what it is, Overall +1 for you Jakee. Keep our Mandalorian trainers proud brother.

[Wulf]

1+. Because if we brought it down to 4 guys with 3 having different load outs and what not. Kinda just bringing it back to how it was to SO BDE. as much as i think it'll be cool, just kinda weird. but then again who am i to say anything Alpha has Spec's, unfortunately not everyone in alpha has the Perms their jobs entitle them too..

[Marvel]

-1

[Comics]

16 hours ago, Lucky said:

His point is still the same as with comics stating that foxtrot is part of 212th and thereby works with 212th, if your sending them off basically always to do your own thing, again its just right back to SO BDE again, the statement that only "EOD" will get the guns is the same thing said by everyone, then the next guy comes along and complains that why don't all the slots have all the weapons, it's like Mitchell stated nothing is being lost in return for this, there is only gain, and in my whole stance yall getting a medic would have been perfectly fine 

When we on private 212th business w3 cannot deploy them separately. They are still essential members in our battalion and will fight in the frontlines but allowing them to be more independent when needed is great.

They will not go all SOBDE and ditch, I sit letting it happen. I honestly dunno why all of you are pretending they're just gonna become some elite fuck off squad that never works with 212th and only goes on private missions. They'll be working separately on 212th missions. They will fight with us on da battlefield but if we see an opportunity we can send them around so they can do some RC stuff to help the 212th attack.

Honestly bruh, rn foxtrot just a gun and that can't be changed without diversified jobs

Edited August 2, 2020 by Comics

[Eagle]

+1 It would be nice for foxtrot to be a well equiped team

[Twelves]

+1

[Wren]

+1

[Gompers]

+1 specialize

[BadDog]

+1 

[PUCK]

-1

[Bananaberry]

Moved to pending

//locked
//moved to pending

[Dragon]

Denied by Intel Team

Forum Message HOI for details